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Penalties for Rule Infringements

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Penalties for Rule Infringements

Post by dwevans on Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:01 pm

First of all, I don't want to come across inappropriate raising this discussion. I am well aware that my playoff victory over ET is marred by a little controversy but I see this as an opportunity to evaluate our current rules and see if there is any room for improvement. 

There has been a couple of discussions in the last 12 months about PA on 3rd and long and I can accept that the league consensus is for this to stay but my feelings are that sometimes the potential punishment (punting the ball away) for the attacking side is too harsh. On top of that it can ruin the endings of great games. I am grateful to ET in our recent game for being a fantastically good sportsman and agreeing to play on after that strange situation (I still don't understand what happened even after trying to replicate it). Punting the ball away when the game had been so tight would have been a real shame and both sides still had a good chance of winning even if play continued. So thank you @xxeternalxx. I would have done the same but many others wouldn't have.

I do feel this gives us a little opportunity to look at the rules. I feel that there is a way of approaching this that could be more in keeping with the sim nature in which we play whilst still allowing a degree of leniency for human error. Just because a play action is used does not guarantee the play will be successful and just because 3 men were blocked on a play equally does not mean it would be a guaranteed success. There is so many other factors that come into play that mean that punting the ball away after a single infringement is sometimes too harsh. It is essentially a free play for the defence. They can score 7 points on a play whereas the offence cannot do anything positive from the moment the ball is snapped - this is too much of a disparity for something this small.

Equally, not all infringements are noticed and have personnel available to review and adjudicate a decision. Some people are better at spotting this than others which again is disadvantageous to some. Personally, for example, I did not even know that the hot route number was displayed on the previous play screen until 2 weeks ago.

So what do I suggest. Something like this:

First infringement in a game:

Line of scrimmage not reached - 1 delay of game penalty (including infringements on 3rd down in 4 down territory)
1st down gained - 1 x delay of game penalty and loss of down (kneel) - start on 2nd and 16 essentially.
Touchdown scored - XP has to be missed. Ball must be kicked out of bounds on ensuing kick off.
 
Second infringement in a game - Starting QB subbed out for remainder of game. Maximum of 3 points allowed to be scored on the drive. QB banned for 2 games.

3+ infringements in a game - sim win for opponent. Coach banned for 1 game. 

2 separate games with an infringement - QB banned for 2 games
3 separate games with an infringement - 2 star players banned for 4 games
4 separate games with an infringement - Coach banned for 1 game and 3 star players banned for 6 games 

Obviously this is not encouraging loosening of the rules. Any established member of the league should know them by now but this allows for a more sim style way of handling any infractions. I still feel that the penalty for repeat infringers would be harsh enough to deter people from any abuse but would still allow game flow to be maintained and accidental or CPU errors on key drives to be handled in a way fair for both sides.

I would love to know people's thoughts to this suggestion or any modifications that might be considered better.
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Re: Penalties for Rule Infringements

Post by ParaAUT on Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:14 am

I'm fine with some lower penalties, and if possible as easy to understand as possible. I think we have to understand that some in our league just read the forum every once in a while and play the game more casual. As you wrote most won't even find out that there was something wrong with the opponents play.

I totally agree with you if you ask me about your last matchup. A punt in that situation would have been huge and absolutely not good to decide that good matchup in a playoff game.
On the other side I think this rule exists to prevent players to draw up there own plays. All protect with 3+ hot-routes has never been a problem (at least for me), but breaking the Madden logic with strange route combinations like the pro players is a problem. So 3 hot-routes have very different effects. Unfortunately there is no way to see which hot-routes have been used as far as I know.

The other topic - is play-action on 3rd down that huge this year as in previous versions? If it's not, I would have no problem to completely abandon the rule or change it a bit (but don't want to open the discussion again!!).

In short: I'm good with whatever is decided here Smile
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Re: Penalties for Rule Infringements

Post by FraserOliver17 on Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:02 am

Big fan of the QB suspension for violating the wellness policy
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Re: Penalties for Rule Infringements

Post by Bartell on Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:25 am

Over-complicating matters IMO - some struggle with the rules as they are.

Maybe some could do with a tweak but what you're suggesting is unmanageable as it would mean 1 commissioner would need to sit and watch every game - craziness and wont happen.
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Re: Penalties for Rule Infringements

Post by Bartell on Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:26 am

P.S. 

"2 separate games with an infringement - QB banned for 2 games
3 separate games with an infringement - 2 star players banned for 4 games
4 separate games with an infringement - Coach banned for 1 game and 3 star players banned for 6 games "


Isnt sim it it  Laughing
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Re: Penalties for Rule Infringements

Post by dwevans on Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:43 am

@Bartell wrote:Over-complicating matters IMO - some struggle with the rules as they are.

Maybe some could do with a tweak but what you're suggesting is unmanageable as it would mean 1 commissioner would need to sit and watch every game - craziness and wont happen.

Infringements don't happen that often to necissarily warrant that and if the ruling is clearly documented then there is no need for an adjudicator. Most probably get missed anyway.

I am mainly trying to offer a more balanced solution to one offs that doesn't interfere with the flow of a game. I don't play Madden to ask my opponent to punt the ball away for an infringement of rules that don't exist within the game itself. It feels so unrealistic, but a loss of down and 5 yard penalty would seem a more fair solution and I don't think there would be much argument from either side. The offence keeps the ball and can apologise. The defence has a good chance of stopping them in two plays starting at 2nd and 16. I feel that's pretty even. You are unlikely to one infringement in most games and even less likely to see more than that, so the more complex ideas probably don't come into play.
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Re: Penalties for Rule Infringements

Post by xxeternalxx on Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:53 am

If it were up to me I'd drop the hotroute limit entirely and let folks be creative, but that's a post for another day.

I do think we should define penalties just for future reference. It just about ruined a really good game figuring out what we should do.


Our particular situation was difficult, a third down conversion via a play that was a violation of rules. Ultimately (due to lack of clarity on the penalty) we had to just agree to carry on and allow the first to stand with a delay of game to appease, but the reset of downs is a killer. Rather than third/fourth and X we had first and 15. 

There should probably be one specific rule for violations that result in a new set of downs and one for violations that don't. Thoughts?
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Re: Penalties for Rule Infringements

Post by Bishbosh1985 on Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:45 pm

I didn't see the game - can someone explain EXACTLY what happened here please. Preferably ET or Ev, both would be great.

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Re: Penalties for Rule Infringements

Post by dwevans on Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:06 pm

I preferably don't want this thread to spiral into a discussion of that incident Bish. I would rather just use it as a platform to discuss whether we could think of adjusting how we manage these sort of situations.

However, for those who weren't aware, the score was 17-16 to Cowboys when they kicked off with about 4 minutes left. Panthers had driven up the field to their own 48. 3rd and 3. 2 minutes 20 or so on the clock. I called a short slant/drag type play over the middle and completed to Funchess for 4 yards in traffic and the first down.

ET had a 6 man rush dialled up on the play (nickel double a gap mid blitz) that i spotted from earlier in the game so I blocked the HB, TE and smart routed one of the routes (which shouldn't normally be a hot route). The play came up as 3 hot routes but when I go and replicate the exact scenario in another game afterwards with Luke (cardinals) it comes up with 2 hot routes. If you watch the play it is the same as the play art but with the two blocked players blocking. I only intended to use 2 and I was certain I had only used 2 but the screen said 3. The two minute warning has gone. I only have two timeouts and we were stuck as what to do.

I am still certain I didn't do anything untoward so I felt punting was too harsh a penalty in a game that had been very tight and would likely kill the game. I had made a 4 yard completion in heavy traffic on a quick read. Nothing cheesy, nothing to trick the AI, just a good pass that I was fortunate to hold on to as well. Of course this was four down territory and I would have likely gone for it had it been an incompletion again making a punt the wrong penalty. We probably only settled on a decision to take a delay of game penalty because ET ended up being pushed for time in all honesty.

Im sure all of us enjoy sports for those moments to win games on a final drive (either on offence or defence) so it would have been very harsh for that opportunity to be taken away for both sides. Personally, I would not have even noticed the hot route counter and, if I had, I may not have even said anything. I still would have felt on defence that with three timeouts and on halfway I still had a good chance of winning the game.

This is why I have prompted this discussion, to see if our handling of these situations could be a little more defined and not take away from those sort of moments, which sadly it did.
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Re: Penalties for Rule Infringements

Post by Bishbosh1985 on Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:27 pm

Many thx for the explanation Ev, no intention of drawing this out here, simply wanted to know what you guys were referring to.

There are so many ways to interpret what is sim or not sim, cheesy or not cheesy etc, so we need to be very careful how we control the various elements.

We will look into this, not just because it was a playoff game (deciding drive at that) - but because all decisions need to be robust and sustainable for 'going forward' purposes.

Obviously, this result has to stand (and i'm not suggesting it should or shouldn't) but it certainly has thrown up a fundamental question (or two).

Thx again.

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Re: Penalties for Rule Infringements

Post by dwevans on Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:29 am

Has there been any productive discussions to update us on before regular season starts?
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Re: Penalties for Rule Infringements

Post by dwevans on Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:10 pm

Bump @brza37 I would love to know your thoughts.
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Re: Penalties for Rule Infringements

Post by brza37 on Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:07 pm

Sorry for the late response. I didn't notice this issue until you bumped it Monday.

I thought about this for a while and I just don't see how we can implement a set of rules that can cover every possible infringement with correspondingly justified penalties. There are just too many scenarios where the penalty may be game deciding or the infringement is game-deciding but the penalty is too lax.

The simplest answer would be to replay the down but thats impossible in Madden. Maybe the offender could kneel twice to get back to 3rd down but what if time is critical, will the clock run out as a result? What if it was a 40 yard gain. How do you make up for the yards? Run backwards to the original spot and start at 1st and 50? Thats as good as a punt. Continuing from the spot with a loss of downs could put them in FG range which was enough to win it anyway. And what rules are covered? Should a delay of game and/or loss of downs be enforced for dropping back too far once or moving a player they didn't control one time? I just don't see a way to make a universal set of rules that will always be fair. Optimally two grown men should be able to put competition aside and come to a mutual agreement about whats fair and move on, as evans and eternal did. As was said above, we're here to play a game and have fun, not argue over minor infringements and determine a fair penalty.

I do have to say though that its been posted multiple times that the punt rule only applies if you're opponent used Playaction on 3rd or 4th down and long. Choosing a PA on 3rd/4th and long is something very easy to avoid. There should be no reason why people do it and if you were in a 4 down situation then thats just tough. I don't know why this has come up recently as a solution for minor infringements or infringements that are hard to prove without a doubt.

So what I think we can universally enforce is:
- PA on 3rd/4th and long results in a punt. Punt must be a touchback or outside of the 20, no coffin corner kicks after a long gain for example.
- A violation that results in a TD must allow your opponent to score a TD as quickly as possible and return possession to the original team.

Even with minor infringements a kneel down or delay of game could end the game if it occurs late or not be enough since the damage has already been done. I think these unfortunately need to be handled on a case by case basis but I'd usually start with a PM with a rule reminder/warning instead of a concrete penalty unless it was a critical game-changing play.

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