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 The rise of the TE

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AfroDizzyMac
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PostSubject: The rise of the TE   Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:19 pm


It seems this season the TE's have all had plenty off season training as I noticed 4 out of the 5 top receivers are TE's.

Whereas I accept getting beat by a better player, seeing the opposition TE coming in with the most receptions and yardage in the game is getting a bit dull. This is the way of my last 3 games.

We all like to use the TE, myself included, but I feel it is getting out of hand. If I am missing something and the TE game considered acceptable, then I too will ramp up the TE plays and make my games easier for myself...although I doubt I would enjoy it as much......... Smile

*mild rant over*

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PostSubject: Re: The rise of the TE   Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:48 pm

I agree with Afro. The TE use has gotten out of hand and very unrealistic. I can understand if you have a great weapon at TE that he can be your leading receiver but when the TE or any receiver for that matter has more than double the yards of the next best receiver on your team than you're not abiding by the rules that say to use different plays and spreading the ball around in a realistic fashion. Changing up your playcalling doesn't mean using 20 different formations where your TE has a corner route or streak. It also means not abusing the same types of routes over and over again. So in the future guys keep an eye on that and make sure you're using more of the playbook, more variety on routes and players.

And another thing, I don't know whats going on in the run game but there's no way 3 guys should be averaging over ten yards a carry. 8 is already extreme but 10 is ridiculous. I'm not acusing anyone of foulplay here but couldn't comment on the point about the TE overuse wthout mentioning the rising rushing ypc either. Hopefully, in Madden 13 this won't be a problem because we can use sliders and make the run game a bit more difficult to combat the overly high ypc.

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PostSubject: Re: The rise of the TE   Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:33 pm

The YPC is to do with the DPP I think, if a quality RB starts the game well then he gets on a role and literally can't be stopped. The o-line start dominating the d-line etc...

As for the tight end, I'm surprised Winslow has seen as many targets as he has. I'd prefer to get more yards with Williamd/Miles/Benn. However, last 2 games I've been going through my reads like normal and he's just been open. That's just from my POV though, I can't speak for any others.
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PostSubject: Re: The rise of the TE   Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:41 am

Ok well my whole game is based on small short passes seeing as I cant pass for pooh anyway and many of the plays I use are to the TE short over middle or little hooks.....I cant understand what the problem is to be honest the TE is part of the offence...........how and with who you get your yards is surely up to the player as long as there is no cheating............my average for the running game is about 2.5 or something like that I again is it a question of how good you are with the stick rather then how good the RB is ? I am still trying to figure that out, I have Hillis in the UK franchise and he gets more yardage for me then McFadden ??????? Browns are a pooer team then my Raiders ............
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PostSubject: Re: The rise of the TE   Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:53 am

I'm not trying to attack anyone's playstyle or offend anyone by bringing this up. If you consider how a real life game pans out with pass receptions, there is no way you will see the TE get so many passes and yardage as we have in our league. The TE pass in M12 seems to be a fairly easy go to in 2nd and 3rd down situations and as Daz mentions the TE is usually the guy who gets free from the pass coverage easier.

When I first started playing M12 I was guilty of repeat plays favouring the TE and was pulled up on it and rightly so. It forced me to find ways of effectively using my WR team, who really are the guys who should be mostly catching passes.

I don't want to be a kill joy, but the TE thing is killing my joy! Smile
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PostSubject: Re: The rise of the TE   Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:09 am

I agree with you in principle Afro. Tbh I have no issue with someone looking predominately to the TE (or any WR for tht matter) in human v human games. Tbh I like it when my opponent does that, it makes them easy to shut down. But there should be no reason to do it against the CPU, that is pure stat padding.

I'm with OSS on the RB thing, I think the high YPC is probably due to stick skills as opposed to abuse of particular plays.
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PostSubject: Re: The rise of the TE   Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:29 am

I think if you are putting the TE on a streak every play that is abusing/cheating because lets be honest no line backer apart from Pat Willis can keep up with the likes of Antonio Gates etc..

I love using the TE alot but like OSS said there usually short little hooks.... My 1st read is always a WR but sometimes if they are covered and no one is manually guarding the TE its an easy completion, and usually great on 3rd downs..

If someone is abusing one player like a TE for example tho, then it should be easier for you to jump a pass and intercept more passes... If you are talking away their 1st read, then you can get alot of coverage sacks and rushed throws that lead to mistakes..
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PostSubject: Re: The rise of the TE   Sun Jul 22, 2012 5:44 pm

Guys I am fairly new at this and as most of you know have been struggling to pass , 2-3 ints per game is normal for me and its something that is obviously hurting me part of my problem is not being able to read the D at times and my main problem locking on to 1 particuolar reciever so forgive me if I am using my TE to the max, there usually the nearest guy to my QB if I cant see an open reciever, there are a few plays where my TE has got open for 15 maybe 20 yard plays and well what should I do not throw to my reciever becuase he is open or because he might make more then 10 yards..
I understand that any abuse is not acceptabel but I dont think its a huge problem , and just for the record I lost against CPU today my main TE is out injured and my back up came in todaya nd went 7 rec for 122 yards, wr Doss 50 and Ford 99 ...........passed for 283 and as i said 3 ints !!
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PostSubject: Re: The rise of the TE   Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:35 pm

I think a lot of it also depends on the quality of your quarterback. Not everyone has Drew Brees, Peyton Manning or whomever and some QB's are wildly inaccurate at times - especially when going long. Not everyone has elite WR's either and anyone with a mediocre receiving corps would soon get fed up with going 3 and out.

So taking away the tight end option is just going to make the strong teams stronger and the less talented teams weaker.

Winslow was used as an example, but Winslow was always regarded while he was in Cleveland as being one step away from being a WR anyway. His run blocking abilities were not up to much.

I think all targets, WR's, TE's and HB's are legitimate targets and if someone keeps abusing the same player then cover him!
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OSS-LondonRaider
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PostSubject: Re: The rise of the TE   Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:07 am

LOL woof woof
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PostSubject: Re: The rise of the TE   Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:35 am



In my defense - Charles has rushed for alot of yardage this year and is at the top of the YPC with 13 odd yards but that's high because hes only had 70 odd touches and ive managed to break them off for either big games of TDs. I dont think any of my scores have been excessive this year so i carnt see the problem - id just put it down to, as Daz and Oss said ''Stick Skills''.

I think we can get too caught up on this sort of thing - if people arent exploiting bugs and glitches in the game ( shake & nano blitzing etc ) then i personally dont have a problem with them targetting a favourite guy. Its all down to my game plan beating your game plan and ive found out (mainly in other franchises) that the people that do have only one target on the team usually get found out very quickly.

I agree totally with the last point GB said - if someone is abusing one particular target then cover them.

Im not attacking anyone in any way shape or form in fact a good debate / discussion is good for everyone to say their piece. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: The rise of the TE   Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:14 pm

OSS, I don't know why you've taken offense to the issue. You're not really one of the examples of TE overuse at least in my opinion. Your TE is in the top 5 but you have a realistically balanced attack as your TE only accounts for a third of your receiving yards and Ford is close behind him.

I think there are two issues here and one is being overlooked to justify the whole thing:
1) TE overuse versus CPU
2) TE overuse against human opponents

So far everyone is skipping over the first point and saying just cover the TE and get over it as a response to 2. Ok, but what about the CPU. Why is it necessary to have 10 receptions and 180 yards to your TE in a blowout win vs. CPU? In the past people have complained to me about others for padding stats and running up the score. Others complain that they are doing all they can to respect the rules about mixing up playcalling which leads to some close CPU games and occassional losses and find it frustrating that others seem to be disregarding those rules vs. CPU to ensure a win. The issue is just getting some semblance of balance. People shouldn't be forced to go away from their strengths or run bad plays to maintain realism but they also shouldn't be constantly focusing on the same players or plays and taking advantage of the AI vs. the CPU in order to win at all costs or pad stats.

Now to the 2nd point. Nobody is talking about taking away the TE position or making weak teams weaker by forcing them to disregard their strengths. Again, it is perfectly acceptable to have a TE as your leading receiver. Take Gates, Gonzalez and Graham for examples that have all done it in real life.

The problem is again balance. It is not acceptable for one player to make up more than half of your team's receiving yards. Thats just unrealistic. Even in Jerry Rice's record setting year in 95 when he had over 1800 yards receiving he only accounted for 39% of the teams receiving yardage. In a game to game scenario it happens that a receiver accounts for way more than half the yards. Thats fine. But when its a weekly occurence throughout a season its a problem. People join a sim league because they're tired of playing random guys online who have 4 plays they play all game and just hot route, audible and rocket catch their way to the same cheesy results. I'm not saying thats the case here either but people expect somewhat realistic stats in a sim league. Everyone read the rules here before joining, agreed to them and for the most part said they really like the rules.
This issue is about one of the very first rules though:
Quote :
Mixing up the Playcalling: Varying your playcalling on both offense and defense is a requirement of sim play. On offense, be sure to show your opponent different formations and different plays out of each.
It is understandable (and acceptable) for a team that is down by a lot to become one dimensional, needing to throw the ball. By the same token, a team that is up by a lot is permitted to become one dimensional running the ball to keep the clock running. As long as the game is close, we expect all box scores to reflect a concerted effort at reasonable play calling. This means that no game should end with a run/pass ratio of 75/25 or vice versa.

Whats the point in mixing up playcalling if the ball is almost always going to the same person anyway? If the exception "then cover it" is right then why should I have to run the ball at all if my TE corner route works every time and my opponent can't cover it? Now thats one extreme but the argument of "just cover it" is another. And I don't think we should be advocating extremes here. The solution is all about balance. I'm not saying if your TE is open that you should disregard him. Its just about putting yourself into position to have other options. People have complained to me about other players running the toss too much or constantly audibling to streaks and throwing the high bullet. Well, this is exactly the same thing and I think to just disregard it by saying "cover it" is wrong. It then just opens up a whole can of worms in regards to playcall balance and taking advantage of the CPU AI.

All I'm saying is please try to maintain balance in all aspects of the game. One player should not account for half your team's receiving yards regardless of position.

About the rush ypc thing, like I said, I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I think you guys are right and it is a stick skills thing, as well as DPP, high ratings and poor balancing issues by EA. I just had to bring it up because the issue with the TE usage is a stat thing and it would be hypocritical to disregard the unrealistic ypc while saying that the TE stats are unrealistic.

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PostSubject: Re: The rise of the TE   Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:23 pm

OK brza I did not take offence , honestly I was just adding my own thoughts to the discussion as I do throw quite abit to my TE and thought I would explain in responce to Afros comments, again I really was not upset by the post just thought I would reply as I saw that my TE was in deed one of the top 5 recivers..........I agree with you its all about a balance and as you point out when playing the CPU people shouldnot be trying to pad up thier stats..I long for the day when I will be good enough to be able to do that !!!!!
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PostSubject: Re: The rise of the TE   Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:08 pm

Seems to me, after reading the above comments there's an obvious point that is being missed regarding the TE usage (and all other forms of unsim play) - this is a SIM league and at the VERY LEAST everyone should attempt to play in a sim manner.

Clearly, this 'play sim mindset' is not happening - the TE figures over the past couple of seasons is proof of that.

While M12 is probably the best team game on the market, ultimately there are still many flaws - too many to list in fact, but the TE receptions, the toss, certain blitzes etc are just a few annoyances we have all encountered. And because of these flaws players are not necessarily rewarded for good play and frustrations set in. I stopped playing M12 last week - not because of the weaknesses within the programming, but because of the lack of 'sim' games against human opponents. Not any 1 guy in particular, but the general pattern of play seems to have changed recently and the screen is back with a vengeance (even when not blitzing) and over-use of the draw in unrealistic situations does not help the 'Madden experience'.

But, back to the TE situation - saying 'just cover the TE' is a guarantee to get burned. If you have to 'cover' the TE specifically it affects your whole defensive scheme and that is my
biggest complaint about TE over-use (or the toss, screen etc). The TE routes are the hardest thing to stop in M12 as even the lower rated QB's have good short pass figures and as its an instant pass for mainly short routes, difficult to stop against a half-decent player.

Players will often have a 'great game' and post big numbers but thus never happens over and over again in the NFL. Simply put, a sim league should reflect the NFL where possible, which brings me full circle - the online franchise players must at least 'try' and play sim.
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PostSubject: Re: The rise of the TE   Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:03 pm

This is always a thorny subject and one that is raised in most leagues from time to time. Usually though, it's not just TE's - RB's and FB's come into the equation too. However, no mention of them here.

Usually too you will find that the teams that are complaining either have very good WR's, or a very good QB, or both. And maybe (and I am not saying that is the case here as I don't know most of the players and haven't checked the results) someone has got upset after losing to a team that they should have beaten on paper - or thought they should have beaten. And that can often come about because of throws to TE's, RB's etc. Take an average WR and a non-elite run-of-the-mill QB and deep passes to your WR's are likely to end in tears. The question is: how far do you want to take "sim"? If it's sim at all costs, then the weak teams in the league are going to have little or no chance of winning, because they're not being allowed to play to their strengths.

For anyone who hasn't tried their luck with a crappy team, have a go completing long passes that are routine for those who do have a tasty quarterback and/or wide receivers and see how you get on.

Equally, if someone has a poor o-line and are getting blitzed a lot, then the order of the day is going to be quick passes or face getting sacked. So if in order to stop being sacked, you call quick passes all the time to avoid it, that's not sim either? Should you just take the punishment?

My fear would be that if you start restricting throws to certain players then you will find that you won't have much interest from owners taking the weaker teams. I could be wrong but many would think they are on a hiding to nothing and people at least want to think they have a chance to compete.

Also, I don't know why people are getting upset about games against the cpu. I don't think the cpu has confirmed it has read and accepted the rules and doesn't mind cheating or indeed running up the score, given half the chance.

Ultimately it's up to the commish or his committee to decide what to do but for my part, if I see someone using the same receiver I will try to cover him through a combination of spotlight and manual coverage. I can't say I've seen the screen used much in M12 and as for stopping the toss, by and large that can be stopped if you know it's likely to be coming (nothwithstanding missed tackles, of course).


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PostSubject: Re: The rise of the TE   Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:18 pm

I'm glad there's been an adult debate on this topic, bringing about an understanding of the differing perceptions held around play styles and opinions of what is deemed acceptable in the game.

The important thing for me is to have fun playing the great game that is NFL while making new friends along the way. This is a great league and long may it continue in the good natured way in which it is currently played! afro
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PostSubject: Re: The rise of the TE   Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:32 pm

Well sai Very Happy d Afro now get that bloody hair cut get some dreads at least............ Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: The rise of the TE   Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:37 pm

OneSuddenStrike wrote:
Well sai Very Happy d Afro now get that bloody hair cut get some dreads at least............ Very Happy

lol, only if you give me the Raiders! You know you want to!! Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: The rise of the TE   Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:23 pm

rendeer lol
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