Search
 
 

Display results as :
 

 


Rechercher Advanced Search

Latest topics
» M18 Power Rankings
Yesterday at 5:21 pm by brza37

» Madden 18 News
Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:18 pm by Bartell

» Madden 18 Ratings
Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:39 pm by Shanew1705

» Fantasy league
Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:35 pm by Shanew1705

» The AMAZING HAWKS AWAY
Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:57 pm by warlow66

» Panthers @ Saints
Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:35 am by Hiero1994

» Seahawks v Bengals
Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:15 pm by warlow66

» Steelers v Browns
Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:04 am by ParaAUT

» Bills vs Titans
Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:08 pm by LTown27ers

August 2017
SunMonTueWedThuFriSat
  12345
6789101112
13141516171819
20212223242526
2728293031  

Calendar Calendar

Positional Changes - The Facts

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Positional Changes - The Facts

Post by Bishbosh1985 on Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:13 pm

Guys, there seems to be a lot of 'disagreeing' and the odd negative comment about positional changes. Firstly, these changes were implemented way back when as it's a reality of the NFL - scheme changes, position weakness etc .. But, we have to be 'CFM realistic' as well as sim.

What this means, is sometimes we have to make decisions that are not 'NFL sim' but are relevant to our CFM and the way Madden games play out. 

For example, we allowed 'pass commit' from M15 purely because PA passes were over-powered - as we all watched our Pro-Bowl DE's run straight at the HB every time PA was called.

With positional changes, we sometimes have circumstances whereby we either do or do not allow a request - and receive comments often disagreeing with the decision of the committee - and there's nothing wrong with opinions as they are generally well delivered. Recently the size and weight of O linemen has cropped up, but, we cannot be specific and write a host of amendments to rules considering all eventualities.
In Madden, whether a player is borderline size or weight can often be unimportant as a players ratings tend to be most important. We would all like to see a super speedy receiver torch a secondary but in Madden that cannot happen very often as 'real' speed ratings would make some players unstoppable - and the game unsim.

Let's be honest here, how many HC's have a fast (but not NFL standard) LB purely to user - because in M17 that helps a defense, and if anyone needs any more proof about a CFM versus NFL realities, excluding draftees, just cast your eyes over rosters and see who starts and who doesn't compared to the NFL. That's not because we are unsim, it's because EA coded the players that way.

In summary, us committee bods discuss everything (probably more than is healthy lol) - but we all need to understand that EA Madden games are not perfect - but WE try and make it as sim as possible, which sometimes means making what appears to be 'unsim' decisions.

You're welcome.

_________________
avatar
Bishbosh1985
Hall of Fame
Hall of Fame

Posts : 1358
Join date : 2011-11-13
Location : Halas Hall

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Positional Changes - The Facts

Post by Kook on Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:03 pm

Yes, but again (and @zill_kills this is really nothing personal, it's really just a general concern) look how the draft played out regarding offensive linemen. 
Stuckey was clearly the best offensive lineman of the class, but his physical attributes also obviously identified him as an interior lineman. 
That's why he fell to the middle first round, because he's an interior lineman who aren't as highly valued as tackles. The same guy at 6'5, Left Tackle, would've likely been drafted way earlier. On the other hand i was thinking about drafting Shawn Revis as a possible Guard but didn't because 6'6 is simply a ridiculous size for an interior lineman.
At some point these things do make a huge difference and a sim league should at least care about the proper sizes and weight of positions, when I've even been told in the past that I had to change my players numbers because they weren't sim.
avatar
Kook
Veteran
Veteran

Posts : 132
Join date : 2017-01-26

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Positional Changes - The Facts

Post by Bishbosh1985 on Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:55 pm

Kook, it's all about the big picture. That number thing is a good one tho  affraid

_________________
avatar
Bishbosh1985
Hall of Fame
Hall of Fame

Posts : 1358
Join date : 2011-11-13
Location : Halas Hall

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Positional Changes - The Facts

Post by Xipie on Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:11 pm

The big picture and fact is that the smallest tackle in the league is now Stuckey.. thinking

I don't mind to keep my guy at DE but let's try to keep it somewhat consistent obviously from committee and owner perspective.  I love you
avatar
Xipie
Rookie
Rookie

Posts : 63
Join date : 2017-01-26
Age : 37
Location : Cologne

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Positional Changes - The Facts

Post by Kook on Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:58 pm

@Bishbosh1985 wrote:Kook, it's all about the big picture.
You have not given an argument in your post why these positional changes diametral to their height/weight requirements are in accordance with the league being sim, which is in the first sentence of the league rules. 
You claim that height/weight does not play a role in gameplay. This is wrong. They are deeply intertwined with the attribute points, and that combination of attributes and size plays an incredibly important role in team building in CFM. Why else do you think all the tall WR are slow most of the times and the really speedy WR are usually small?!
A 300 pound guy with 80 speed is elite. A 220lbs guy is trash. 
A 6'2 guy with 80 agility is way more common and not as impressive as a 6'6 guy with 80 agility. Which explains why the former gets drafted in the mid-late round to play Guard and the latter is a potential first overall pick.

"The big picture" is that there's nothing realistic about permitting a team to play a 6'2 guy as Tackle and a 6'8 one at Guard, instead of the other way around.
There were two tackles drafted before Stuckey, even though he had the best rating, because of the much higher draft value of the position, and it would obviously be unrealistic to play him at that OT position. 
A positional change regardless of size can dramatically change the value of a player. 
If positional changes lead the draft order ad absurdum, then that is a significant issue.
avatar
Kook
Veteran
Veteran

Posts : 132
Join date : 2017-01-26

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Positional Changes - The Facts

Post by Bishbosh1985 on Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:16 am

Kook, you often approach a forum subject as if it's an argument - which you have to win, this is not wise. I can see you write adequately and suggest you phrase your comments in a more 'reader friendly' way, just to avoid rubbing guys up the wrong way. 

You make statements that are untrue. I.e. your comment 'You claim that height/weight does not play a role in gameplay' whereas the actual line is 'In Madden whether a player is borderline size or weight can often be unimportant as a player's ratings tend to be most important'. It's a generalisation about Madden.

As all can see, you talk in absolutes.

You get very close to insults, see the 'why else do you think all the tall WR's are slow?' line. Unnecessary comment and could be misconstrued as inflammatory.

You say there is nothing realistic about a 6'2'' Tackle - see my remark about Madden games not being perfect.

The whole point of my post was pointing out that we can't always be NFL sim to achieve as close a sim game as we can. You make no comment about this - which is the big picture i referred to above.

BEFORE you start 'typing angry', i have pointed out the above because you need to accept opinions are opinions - yours are just yours. If the committee think the league is better off adding or amending the rules, it will happen, regarding any matter. 
You make some very good points throughout these threads and are most helpful to all of us which is much appreciated, the small % of 'not so much' bursts are not.

I'm just saying Chill The F**k Out.

_________________
avatar
Bishbosh1985
Hall of Fame
Hall of Fame

Posts : 1358
Join date : 2011-11-13
Location : Halas Hall

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Positional Changes - The Facts

Post by zill_kills on Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:09 am

Where has my post gone?
avatar
zill_kills
Veteran
Veteran

Posts : 218
Join date : 2017-01-27
Location : believeland! No! the one with the star on the helmet

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Positional Changes - The Facts

Post by zill_kills on Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:04 am

@xipie my tackle is not 30 inches shorter he is shorter by an inch by nfl standards. Where your guy is about 30lbs over weight so I think that is where the point is being made by Bish when he is saying borderline. Not that Im comparing you @Kook to draft Gurus but Russel Willson,Aaron Donald, Drew Brees and so on come to mind when they are not your average for the position in height weight arm lenght and similar things were said when they were being drafted to the things what you are saying but it happened. We are making a big thing in a video game about an INCH. Just because you were trying to be the smartest in the room and the board didn't flip the way you intended it to flip doesn't mean you need to be this aggressive if you think the guy is the best you take him no matter what that is the aim of the draft. Since you made some mis calculations just take the good with the bad have a laugh about it and move on. As for the committee if this is an issue and you guys want me to move him to center or back to guard just let me know. I have 6'5 guys and higher who can play there. I honestly didn't think this will have such an effect on some people-just let me know.
avatar
zill_kills
Veteran
Veteran

Posts : 218
Join date : 2017-01-27
Location : believeland! No! the one with the star on the helmet

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Positional Changes - The Facts

Post by Kook on Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:13 am

@Bishbosh1985 wrote:
You make statements that are untrue. I.e. your comment 'You claim that height/weight does not play a role in gameplay' whereas the actual line is 'In Madden whether a player is borderline size or weight can often be unimportant as a player's ratings tend to be most important'. It's a generalisation about Madden.
This generalisation about Madden is untrue. 
I wrote: [Weight and height] are deeply intertwined with the attribute points, and that combination of attributes and size plays an incredibly important role in team building in CFM.
Yes or no?

"You say there is nothing realistic about a 6'2'' Tackle - see my remark about Madden games not being perfect.

The whole point of my post was pointing out that we can't always be NFL sim to achieve as close a sim game as we can. You make no comment about this - which is the big picture i referred to above."

I wrote:
A positional change regardless of size can dramatically change the value of a player. 
If positional changes lead the draft order ad absurdum, then that is a significant issue.
Yes or no?

But okay, tell me then, because maybe I just don't see the point you're trying to bring across, why this change was allowed and you couldn't be sim in the case of the Guard being moved to Tackle, when there was a perfectly fine Left Tackle still on the board?


Last edited by Kook on Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:23 am; edited 2 times in total
avatar
Kook
Veteran
Veteran

Posts : 132
Join date : 2017-01-26

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Positional Changes - The Facts

Post by Kook on Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:21 am

@zill_kills wrote:Not that Im comparing you @Kook to draft Gurus but Russel Willson,Aaron Donald, Drew Brees and so on come to mind when they are not your average for the position in height weight arm lenght and similar things were said when they were being drafted to the things what you are saying but it happened.
And how many of them switched to a more difficult position (they're even less suited for) coming out of college?
avatar
Kook
Veteran
Veteran

Posts : 132
Join date : 2017-01-26

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Positional Changes - The Facts

Post by zill_kills on Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:34 am

Not sure if you are referring to Bish or me but if its me than:
My team was set even before the draft so I was in position to draft the BEST player possible regardless of the situation... I did not pick him with the intention to move him to LT but after the draft had a look made sense asked for permission got it and moved him. 

1 inch is borderline where 30lbs in xipies case is a huge difference i think that was bishs case but lets wait and see what the master himself will say. 

Also another thing to consider is if height is such an issue at LT than I am not cheating the system as it makes me have a disadvantage and not my opponents . By the point you are making kook it seems that way so if I am willfully inflicting damage on myself than so be it no? This last question is theoretical and I do not need an answer. I have said everything I needed to say in regards to this and if the committee wants the committees decision reversed I do not mind doing it! Just let me know. 

#highroad #itsover #cookiemonster #lol #itsallforalaugh
#nohardfeelings #don'tworrybehappy
avatar
zill_kills
Veteran
Veteran

Posts : 218
Join date : 2017-01-27
Location : believeland! No! the one with the star on the helmet

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Positional Changes - The Facts

Post by Kook on Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:52 am

@zill_kills wrote:I did not pick him with the intention to move him to LT but after the draft had a look made sense asked for permission got it and moved him. 

Also another thing to consider is if height is such an issue at LT than I am not cheating the system as it makes me have a disadvantage and not my opponents . By the point you are making kook it seems that way so if I am willfully inflicting damage on myself than so be it no?
My point is not that he won't be effective at LT. My point is that he will be even though he shouldn't. And for example that people relying on this being a sim league may not have drafted him before you because of his position (because a switch to Tackle were obviously unsim due to his height).
avatar
Kook
Veteran
Veteran

Posts : 132
Join date : 2017-01-26

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Positional Changes - The Facts

Post by brza37 on Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:06 pm

Reposting this here since it applies to the original topic and more people are probably reading this than the Raiders' changes. I'll try to answer specific posts here later when I get some more time.
------------------------
The DE/OLB definition doesn't matter in todays' NFL because of all the hybrid defenses and its also why alot of football outlets have dropped the terms and used Edge player or Interior D-Line to define these guys.
That is also the spirit of the 4-3 DE/3-4 OLB change rule. You can switch Edge players' positions as long as they stay as Edge players. Interior players are 4-3 DT/3-4 DE/3-4 NT. They can also be switched. But you can't go from Edge to Interior or vice versa.

Aside from that, weight currently doesn't matter much in Madden. We allow any changes between these positions independent of weight so that coaches aren't limited in their defense choices. In the NFL a new coach who wants to play 3-4 would tell his 4-3 DEs to lose some weight so they can remain as Edge rushers. Or moving from 3-4 to 4-3 the opposite happens. In Madden we don't have that option. Hell, although not typical, in some systems coaches actually tell their 4-3 DEs to gain weight to play 3-4 OLB. Thats what Chip Kelly did with Vinny Curry who played OLB and DE in the 3-4 at over 285 lbs. After Chip left, Curry actually lost weight to play 4-3 DE at 270 lbs. So limiting Edge position changes in Madden based on weight doesn't make sense because it only limits the coach and isn't something we've done in the past.

So based on that I agree with Serwanga and Washington. If you play a Hybrid D the DE's are basically interior players in a 2-4-5 Nickel or 2-3-6 Dime look though. Because of that I don't think Calhoun can go from OLB to DE then because he'd be an interior player.

_________________
avatar
brza37
Admin

Posts : 2151
Join date : 2011-11-10
Age : 37
Location : Germany

View user profile http://sml-europe.forumocean.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Positional Changes - The Facts

Post by brza37 on Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:42 pm

@Kook wrote:Yes, but again (and @zill_kills this is really nothing personal, it's really just a general concern) look how the draft played out regarding offensive linemen. 
Stuckey was clearly the best offensive lineman of the class, but his physical attributes also obviously identified him as an interior lineman. 
That's why he fell to the middle first round, because he's an interior lineman who aren't as highly valued as tackles. The same guy at 6'5, Left Tackle, would've likely been drafted way earlier. On the other hand i was thinking about drafting Shawn Revis as a possible Guard but didn't because 6'6 is simply a ridiculous size for an interior lineman.
At some point these things do make a huge difference and a sim league should at least care about the proper sizes and weight of positions, when I've even been told in the past that I had to change my players numbers because they weren't sim.
We've never taken height into account for OL switches because generally the top rated OL prospects in Madden drafts have always been LT. I don't recall a situation where someone switched an undersized OG to OT. We limit switches so that teams can't have a full line of natural OTs, which would be an advantage based on ratings even though height doesn't matter.

Secondly, I don't know why you say 6'6" is a ridiculous size for Guard or why you wouldn't take Revis to use at OG. There are over 22 Guards at 6'6" or more in our league right now. In the NFL there have been over 50 Guard prospects at 6'6" or more in the past 10 years according to combine results and that leaves out a bunch of players every year that don't get combine invites but do make NFL rosters. Alex Boone is one of the top guards in the NFL and is 6'8". Dennis Kelly was a backup guard for the Eagles for years at 6'8". Jared Veldheer actually played a game at Center for the Cards in the NFL.

Most of the time people claim the rules are too complicated and we need to do something to simplify things. We make a simple rule OT-OG is interchangeable so that people don't have to memorize acceptable height/weight combinations per position and then get arguments that we need to detail the rules because they're unsim. We also have the simple OT-OG rule in order to avoid long discussions like this where people dig out one exception that proves their point which would ultimately allow any type of position change because there are always exceptions in the history of the NFL.

Finally, the main point of Bish's post as I understand it was not to argue the validity of the rules or some decisions over others, its to say each person is entitled to their opinion. We have a committee set up to make decisions. If you disagree with a decision thats fine. But its not ok to keep arguing an issue to death trying to sway everyone to your side of the argument. State your opinion once and accept that sometimes other people will have other opinions.

On a side note, the Stuckey change did not go through the proper process. Zill asked me and Bish in a chat whether OG to OT changes are allowed because he was thinking of moving Stuckey. Bish and I said yeah, they are generally allowed. Zill should still post the change request and get 3 approvals though just like everyone else who changes a position.

_________________
avatar
brza37
Admin

Posts : 2151
Join date : 2011-11-10
Age : 37
Location : Germany

View user profile http://sml-europe.forumocean.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Positional Changes - The Facts

Post by zill_kills on Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:58 pm

Ok understood.
avatar
zill_kills
Veteran
Veteran

Posts : 218
Join date : 2017-01-27
Location : believeland! No! the one with the star on the helmet

View user profile

Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum